So, its hard steel is easy to sharpen. The steel comes with increased wear and abrasion resistance properties. Each of these contributes to a knifes overall performance. Anthony Sculimbrene authors the blog EverydayCommentary.com. Often used for combat knives. Sandvik later came out with 14C28N which is a slightly improved version of 13C26. Any idea where it would be on the hardness and toughness scales? 14C28N VS S30V S30V steel provides improved corrosion resistance, sharpening ease, and edge retention. Steel high in carbides cant be stamped out; it must be cut by a waterjet or laser, which takes time and is more expensive. It has excellent edge retention, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. I have a few examples below for steels that I have ranges of hardness tested for both toughness and edge retention. Privacy Policy. LC200N has similar properties to those two but with saltwater levels of corrosion resistance. FRN But keep in mind that no steel is perfect for everything. My other knives are a Real Steel E77 8cr14mov. Let's compare 14c28n steel with other steels, and for this, I use four criteria; Edge Retention, Corrosion resistance, Ease of Sharpness, and Toughness and on a scale of 1-10 (10 being the highest) let's see the performance of each steel. Yes its very easy to sharpen but it doesnt hold an edge at all. Having 1.5% Carbon does that. High toughness steels can be produced without powder metallurgy and also have low wear resistance for lower manufacturing costs. I see tables that compare Toughness,Edge Retention,Corrosion Resistance. More expensive powder metallurgy steels in this category include M390, CPM-S35VN, Elmax, CTS-XHP, CPM-S30V, and CPM-154. the more complex fracture toughness at least lets you make some estimates in this sence. Importing steel from Europe to the USA, or vice versa, generally increases the cost. AEB-L and 14C28N also have moderate edge retention though of course much lower than vanadium-alloyed powder metallurgy steels like S30V or M390. 2) you do not go into the sharpening in much detail. The consent submitted will only be used for data processing originating from this website. Here is the article by Larrin on 48 steels. It would be interesting to try to develop a conversation between /geometry/edge retention/toughness, so we could say e.g. Must-Have Bowie Knives for Your Collection, What is Micarta and What Makes It a Great Knife Handle, Top 8 Reasons Why Knives Make the Best Gifts, Pocket Clips: Carry Safely and Comfortably, Make a Knife Your Own with Accessories & Customization. All rights reserved. Hi Larrin Your estimate of 420HCs corrosion resistance is different here than in your October, 2019 post on corrosion resistance testing: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/10/14/corrosion-resistance-testing/ Why does Maxamet and Rex 121 stay the same tcc but Zmax drops and 15v goes from below 900 to over? 14c28n is the most popular material for the knife: stainless steel and made by the Swedish company. Get for a complete guide about other steel; you can read 14c28n vs 8cr13mov reviews. Wusthof Classic Ikon 8-Inch Cooks Knife Review, Victorinox Fibrox Straight Edge Chefs Knife Review, What is Cts bd1 steel? and why would anyone want to use it when 420HC looks so much better for a simple stainless steel option. Most low alloy tool steels and carbon steels also have fine carbide structures without powder metallurgy processing. Even metallurgists can have a difficult time estimating properties just based on the elements. Guide to the Best Knife Steel | Knife Informer Below shows Vanax tempered at 400F on the left and 1000F on the right after 1% saltwater for 24 hours: There are many other ways in which knife steel performance can be reduced through heat treatment but I cant cover them all in this article so hopefully these illustrative examples will be enough. Most vintage tool blades seem to have been made of 1084/1095 or similar, presumably at some <60 Rc hardness that gave the required toughness, and the rules of thumb for sharpening angles are based on those assumptions. (Some crazy folks clean their Swiss Army knivesin adishwasher. It was your original article on ratings that brought me to knifesteel nerds so its great to see your results put back into a form that will no doubt be distributed \ plagiarized widely, hopefully leading to more rational thought and better understanding by the knife consuming public (not that the misleading marketing will go away). So hard vanadium carbides means you get more edge retention for a given amount of carbide. In many cases the cost of working with the steel for the knife companies is more significant than the cost of the steel itself. Also many hardwoods will dull planer blades just because theyre more dense. So, it is quite harder than most other steel variants and retains its edge sharp for a long period. Most edge retention tests isolate wear resistance or how long it takes abrasives to dull your edge in whatever youre cutting. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/03/cryogenic-part1/ Also, what kind of steel is used for utility knives? Sure if you dont want stainless steel fine, but there are plenty other carbon steels out there much better than 5160. Hi Larrin, thanks so much for writing this blog and putting so much reliable information into such an accessible form. It is an excellent steel that in the right hands has proven to produce high performing blades. The value being slightly different doesnt mean its an outlier or measurement error. 14C28N. And Mn and Si isnt shown at all for the high alloy steels, even though those elements are added to all of them. I also have meat cleaver 1,4116 ,58RC that I order and was looking up if its a good steel or did waist money and need to return it. These steels are perfect for thin edges and high hardness. D2 steel also offers similar toughness levels as the 14c28n steel, so both aren't really prone to chipping with proper use. A lot of custom makers also like S110V, including the great RJ Martin. If you look at the chart you may notice that at high toughness levels if you increase edge retention by only a relatively small amount you get very big drops in toughness. It is most useful for steels with large amounts of carbide but also helps to be able to add certain carbide types. I used to work for a company that did reclaimed old growth lumber (swamp cedar, old growth pine and oak beams, etc) and we went through planer blades twice as fast as the cabinetry shop next door (turns out the neighbors like it when you put all the loud businesses together and far away), which mostly cut fresh cherry, oak, maple, hickory etc. you can easily buy a $500 knive made out of 14c28n, which has nothing in it besides cr and a trace of ni. The steel was developed to be free from chromium carbides which gives it properties similar to balanced non-stainless tool steels like CPM-4V and CPM-CruWear. The chart below has dotted lines which indicate the average effect of hardness for any given steel. An example of data being processed may be a unique identifier stored in a cookie. When the blade gets messed up I just replace it. 14C28N steel also has excellent wear resistance due to its high chromium content. S90V whats even more disturbing is that cvn and fracture toughness sometimes (often?) 14C28N and D2 steel are not the same. Top quality steel yields perfect toughness, edge retention, wear and corrosion resistance, an easy to sharpen, long lasting and durable everyday carry that will fast become a user favorite. Thats a pretty large difference in two budget steels that are often compared to each other. we dont know. Spyderco has their own salt spray test setup to determine the corrosion resistance and they determined that MagnaCut is sufficiently corrosion resistant for their salt series of knives. What carbon/tool steel would you choose for a survival knife if a PM steel was too expensive? Im not sure they answer my question, though, and some of your points dont seem to jive with the info here on Larrins site. We looked at common steels used by popular knife brands to help you select the right material for your blade. D2 has a relatively high amount of carbon in its composition (1.55%), more than twice as much as AEB-L (0.68%), but most of that carbon goes into making chromium carbides instead of into solution in the steel matrix, leaving D2 with only ~0.5% C in solution and very large carbides that are good for wear resistance but bad for toughness. The best knife for you should meet your needs and fit your budget. It also tops out around 60-61 Rc like LC200N and needs relatively careful heat treating to even be that hard. Below shows approximate maximum hardness vs stainless rating for several stainless knife steels. It should get an ultra-sharp edge for easy cutting, hold the edge for long for easy maintenance, and have a sturdy and ergonomic handle for comfort and to prevent accidents. . Theres also a line of green triangles a bit below that. However, the 14c28n provides perfect edge retention with a maximum hardness of 62Hrc and the mixture of Chromium and Carbon. My test is for comparing different steels, not necessarily for a go/no go test for saltwater applications. In some previous articles I have shown the balance between my toughness and edge retention measurements such as in the following chart, where the high alloy non-stainless are in orange and the blue are stainless: However, one issue with these charts are that difference in toughness is that a linear scale for toughness is a bit misleading for visualizing practical toughness differences. its like with cars, most of them are not a corvette or a porsche. Using controlled furnace heat treating resulted in toughness around 23-28 ft-lbs at 61-62 Rc, while the knifemaker heat treated specimens were 7 ft-lbs or below. Some steels are more difficult to manufacture for the steel company or have more expensive alloying elements so the cost is increased. There was significant sharpness loss with 1095, almost none with 440A, and D2 was in between. 8670 and 5160 are good choices for large knives that need very high toughness. I have a Spyderco K390 knife and I cut leather with it as it is only .090 thick and I seldom have to strop it on 1 micron diamond compound on leather. Therefore I will be showing the ratings of the steels graphically in terms of toughness-edge retention balance, where steels that are high and to the right have the best combination, and you choose the steel based on the level of toughness or edge retention necessary for the knife. Type 8Cr, the more common formulation, is worse than AUS-8: a little more prone to corrosion and not quite as hard. Many steel ratings seem to over-emphasize edge retention. On the other hand, in d2 air-hardness steel, you cant differentially temper the blade-like other high carbon steel because the steel can also be challenging to sharpen. The most balanced is CPM-MagnaCut which is in an area all by itself on the chart. There are also hardness/toughness and hardness/TCC charts.but no tables backing this charts. If the properties of a knife meet your knife needs and it has the above characteristics, then it qualifies as a quality knife. : at a given toughness, magncut will have better edge retention in real life applications than s90v if it has optimal geometry (or maybe it wouldnt, just an example). : knife a with a toughness of 5 and an angle of 20 degrees will perform as well in edge retention as knife b with a toughness of 3 and an angle of 15 degrees. Ah ok that wasnt mentioned. 14c28n has less carbon and chromium as compared to 9Cr steel. This is an old high-carbon (non-stainless) steel. I believe they are made of simple carbon steel. Its very corrosion-resistant and quite tough. Its probably in between Vanadis 8 and 10V. 1) the cvn number is just that, a number. If you're stuck between 14C28N and 440C, here's a breakdown of the pros and cons of each type of steel. 14C28N steel is not very hard steel which makes it easier to sharpen. Another common heat treating choice that is not even categorized as a mistake is tempering in the high temperature regime (~1000F) rather than the low temperature regime (~400F). AEB-L and 14C28N are the best in the high toughness group. In particular, I have found the ESEE/Rowen 1095 to be less likely to chip and better at holding an edge than the KA-BAR version even in knives with the same role, thickness, and blade length. D2 seems to run at high hrc. I was guessing 5.5 based on your rating of CPM-154. You cannot leave your 14C28N knives in water overnight and expect them not to rust. Theyre excellent for choppers, hard-use folders, and outdoor knives that see impacts and heavy use when used at medium hardness. Nitro V vs 14C28N Last but not least, 14C28N contains comparatively more vanadium elements which makes the carbides more harder and strong, which gives 14C28N a better edge retention. Which one is right for you? By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Below shows charts summarizing tests of different steels for the major categories discussed so far, low alloy steels, high alloy non-stainless steels, and stainless steels. However the 14c28n steel would be great for an EDC knife with typical usage. That is professionaly popular such as the Japanese designation SKD11, Uddeholm Sverker 21, German designation 1.2379, Hitachi SLD and others. I would think that the label applies to either the line or the outlier, but probably not both unless the outlier is a measurement error. 14C28N vs D2: Which Steel Is Better? - Knifeful.com Low Carbon steels like AEB-L wont hold up to wood cutting even though it can hit 64 hard, it just doesnt have enough Carbon. Below, weve listed some of the attributes you might want out of your steel and given some examples in both the more expensive powder metallurgy steels and more affordable conventionally produced steels. And we list budget-friendly knives that have a professional style and grace to them. However, even in this case there is the complicating factor of carbide and abrasive hardness. A cryo treatment and close temperature control is necessary to achieve those hardness levels. 1% saltwater will separate between other stainless steels. Sorry, most of my previous comment was borderline word salad. So what is the best steel for knives? Its an update of its 12C27 and 13C26 steels, which were developed for use in shaving razors. I test corrosion resistance of steels by heat treating 1 x 1.5 inch coupons, finishing to about 400 grit, and then spraying with water. Rather than upgrade from D2 to M4 or S30V just drop the angle from 40 degrees to 30 degrees. Read about my tests in this article. D2 knives offer higher edge retention than 14C28N knives, which is attributed to the high carbon elements and hardness of D2. With conventional steels this limited vanadium additions to about 4-5%, and this was greatly expanded when powder metallurgy was developed. I mean the box cutter type, with the replaceable trapezoidal blades. Both steel types don't chip easily, but 14c28n steel is easier to sharpen. 14C28N and D2 steel are not the same. In general, higher carbon and higher vanadium steels have higher wear resistance and edge retention but lower toughness. This is about comparing steels to each other rather than a limitation of an individual steel. We should be suspicious of anyone who is claiming very high edge retention with a steel at low hardness and a small amount of carbide. CPM-REX 121 and Maxamet are both in this category. These steels favor edge retention over all else. Because of the material difference, the blades differ in toughness, edge retention, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. Its in the same class as Vanadis 8 and 10V. If the steel is overheated in austenitizing, very large reductions in toughness are possible. A2 knives need care taken to avoid rust and are often coated to inhibit corrosion. I can also say from personal experience that marine grade plywood will chaw up your saw blade and battery a lot quicker than standard plywood, but that probably says more about the glue that was used than the wood. HA! The line is only in the neighborhood of 5 of the datapoints. Being stainless is not an on or off property, and some stainless steels are more resistant to corrosion than others. There seem to be a lot of modern steels that get related to D2, but OTOH just saying a steel is similar to D2 seems to kill interest in it. Both knives come at an affordable price for high-end knives. This is a nitrogen steel that is extremely corrosion-resistant so much so that its used in knives designed to go in salt water, among the most difficult conditions knives are used in. Everything you need to know to buy the right knife for the job. However, I would argue that pure material removal is usually not the limiting step for ease in sharpening. The performance of these blades are equally admirable. Very obtuse edges resist chipping better but dont hold their edge as long and dont cut as well. The Vargo Sobata 398 is unlike any other knife on this list. A Japanese powder steel, ZDP-189 is essentially the polar opposite of 3V its uber-hard instead of uber-tough. Steels high in toughness are excellent for knives likely to see hard impacts, like large chopping knives. VG-1 is a non-powder steel made by Japanese specialty steelmaker Takefu. I will be focusing on CATRA edge retention which measures abrasive wear of knives. To view the purposes they believe they have legitimate interest for, or to object to this data processing use the vendor list link below. Hi there, This steel is quite corrosion resistant and sharpens easily. If you want to learn more about a specific steel, you can click it in the sorted listings below. ZDP-189 can tarnish, though not as easily as 3V. Required fields are marked *. List of blade materials - Wikipedia And Michael Fitzgerald, Tim Marais, and Head VI for increasing their contributions. The only thing putting me off immediately buying the p135 is the 14c28n steel. Now 14c28n is IMO the best budget steel out there. Cronidur 30 Spyderco offers this as the high-end steel for many of its evergreen blades, like the Paramilitary 2, Paramilitary 3, Manix 2, and Native 5. The heat treatment techniques used by the manufacturer as well as the design of the blade itself play a huge role in the ultimate outcome of knife performance! Obviously Ill let you check the manuscript prior to publication. D2 at 58 hard will cut much more rope than AEB-L at 62. Cookie Notice This makes for a great slicing knife and a perfect steel, in my opinion, for a regular-use, everyday-carry folder. Properties: 14C28N: D2: Edge retention: 4/10: 7/10: Ease of sharpening: 6/10: 3/10: Corrosion resistance: 4/10: 4/10: Toughness: A European powder-metal steel used in higher-end knives, Elmax has an advanced formula, and the result is a very good all-around steel, a generation ahead of formulations like 154CM. the problem is in the innumerable combinations of grades, grains sizes and coatings available. 14C28N Thanks Larrin, 1. I always thought VG10 to be way more chippy/less tough compared cpms45vn. I know it's much more stainless and corrosion resisitance, but what about wear resistance? I like it in the Seki City Spydercos, but I would like to know what ratings you would give it. They tend to be relatively expensive and difficult to sharpen, as they have high wear resistance. Oh, thats great, thanks. SUS410 European steel company Sandvik produces 14C28N, a non-powder metallurgy steel. 14C28N Leek: D2 Leek: jonnymac44 Joined Sep 27, 2007 Messages 7,674 Oct 21, 2008 #2 Hey Michael, First off, the new 14C28N from Sandvik is just now hitting the streets, and I don't have any results just yet for you. It shows 3 stainless steels from 750-800tcc but the edge retention graph only has 1 SS in that range, S90v. 14C28N VS Steel. The critical difference between these two sheets of steel is their corrosion resistance. Some steels are cooked up specifically with this in mind and are very difficult to make rust. Id like to quote some of your toughness, edge retention and corrosion resistance for balanced midfield steels, including yours, in some data tables. And easy to sharpen in our experience; and that will get an excellent razor edge that lasts for a reasonable price of time. But if when youre searching for tough steel for your outdoor experience camping, or hunting, it would be perfect steel but not the best choice therere other steels with better than toughness that would suit your usage. Rex 121 23.5% vanadium carbide, 4% molybdenum/tungsten carbide (M6C), Conventional Ingot vs Powder Metallurgy Carbide Structure. You need a hard medium to sharpen it like diamond or boride. These steels are typically used by forging bladesmiths, traditional folders, and some production fixed blades. 1095 In that case the difficulty in sharpening would be the inverse of the edge retention rating. Sign up to receive GearJunkie content direct to your inbox. Its a good balance between all three attributes, being relatively hard, tough, and corrosion-resistant. Like 154CM, its a good compromise between all three steel attributes. 12C27 Properties: 14C28N: D2: Edge retention: 4/10: 7/10: Ease of sharpening: 6/10: 3/10: Corrosion resistance: 4/10: 4/10: Toughness: 6/10: 6/10: CIVIVI Knives Elementum Folding Pocket Knife 2.96" D2 Satin Blade . Are you okay with that? Therefore you will use it for a long time without requiring frequent sharpening. Both of those things are no longer an issue as I now have way too many articles and a book. Coarse-carbide tool steel grades. Lots of information is still specific to this article, however. The hardness level of steel is determined using a universal scale called the "Rockwell C Test", commonly called the Rockwell hardness scale (HRC). 440A has more chromium in solution along with a small addition of Mo, but has significant amounts of carbide so the two are an interesting comparison. Powder metallurgy steels with low vanadium content like CPM-1V and Z-Tuff/CD#1 have extremely high toughness. VG-10 steel also has the same level of toughness as 14C28N and the same level of corrosion resistance. Steel softens as tempering temperature increases, but certain steels see an increase in hardness in a certain higher temperature range such as shown below for high speed steels that are designed for this type of tempering: This high temperature tempering can be done for several reasons, such as better resistance to overheating during grinding, or because a coating will be applied to the knife that requires a high temperature. It mainly made for knife and it high in Chromium for excellent corrosion resistance. For example, below is a video comparing a 1095 ESEE knife at 55-57 Rc and a MagnaCut knife at 62.5 Rc, both with the same edge angle. Heat treatment and edge geometry can mean more for knife performance than the specific steel used in the knife. You can read more about these factors in my book Knife Engineering. This is the steel used in Swiss Army knives and is excellent for beginner sharpeners. and corrosion resistance than the 420HC steel. We all have our preference, but overall, preference leans towards the pocket knife with a clip. When we plot toughness vs edge retention on a log scale instead we get a straight line that is a better visualization of toughness differences. 14C28N knives offer better toughness than D2 knives. Note:Dont bother with anything less than 8Cr in this series. Aluminum oxide is used in most common sharpening stones and it is softer than vanadium carbide, which makes sharpening high vanadium steels more difficult. 14C28N vs D2 - knifebasics.com This is a major tradeoff between improved cutting ability and edge retention with an acute angle vs a strong and chip resistant edge with an obtuse angle. quite possibly the best steel youll find on a sub-$30 production knife. This is especially important for chopping knives and for knives with thin edges for enhanced cutting ability and edge retention. Is there a reason SG2/R2 are not included in the lineup, despite being one of the most popular ones? H1 and 420 also have excellent corrosion resistance but are limited to lower hardness and edge retention. On the other hand small but mighty, the pocket knife provides both in professional performance and in arresting good looks. One such person is Dr. Larrin Thomas, a professional metallurgist raised by a knife maker and a giant knife nerd. This is one of the better steels on the market. Approximately the same hardness, yes. It is an upgrade of 12C27, and 13C26 steel initially used to make blades for shaving razors. XHP is an exceptionally well-balanced steel with excellent all-around attributes. the following is not a critique, just a few thoughts to maybe put the relationships into a wider perspective and point to additional dimensions. The D2 steel compares nicely with 14c28n steel in terms of edge retention, as it's quite hard as well. Non-stainless steels can be heat treated to 66 Rc or even higher depending on the particular steel. Crucible intends SPY27 to be good all-around knife steel. On the other hand, edge stability in terms of micro chipping and edge folding is also good. also the angle is by far the most important factor in catra testing, so such results might be irrelevant. I measured corrosion resistance of a slightly lower carbon 420 here: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/03/02/cpm-spy27-experiments-toughness-corrosion-resistance-and-more/. YMMV S45VN D2 steel I actually dont recommend that enthusiasts spend all that much time analyzing the exact composition of different steels and trying to guess their properties. I havent tested Sleipner yet. . The knives are ideal for both indoor and outdoor use. The vivid patterns visible in Damascus steel come from the acid etching process in a ferric chloride solution. That old pine in particular is some crazy hard stuff. Why do knives make the best gifts? Below I have shown the difference in carbide volume between AEB-L, CPM-10V, and Rex 121 to get an idea of how much more carbide there is in the high edge retention steels. That provides 14% Chromium and offers excellent corrosion resistance. Sorry about the misinformation. It mainly made for knife and it high in Chromium for excellent corrosion resistance. In this article, we will discuss the characteristics, pros, cons, and differences between 14C28N and D2 knives to help to make the right choice. This is good for ease in heat treating in large batches and for even cooling that greatly reduces warping and size changes. at least it has some vanadium over the 420hc. (I think the 420HC estimate in that post was based on simulation or computer modeling, since you didnt spray testing any of the 400 series.) Jesse Jarosz, a custom maker from Montana, regularly uses AEB-L. This is a non-powder Japanese steel used primarily in Spyderco knives. Theres still a lot of misinformation being pushed by influencers especially in knife steel rankings. I was thinking maybe Sleipner or A2 would be best if a PM steel was out. Sandvik 14C28N Vs D2 Knife - edcTopic.com Its exceedingly tough and relatively hard, but its not stainless. Steel with high wear resistance is more costly to manufacture, as the knife company goes through more abrasives to grind the knives. This is basically a retrofit of a very old steel, adding more carbon to the recipe of 420 (hence the HC for high carbon). D2 steel knives, on the other hand, offer great edge retention and wear resistance, which are properties of tool steels.14C28ND2Toughness93.5Edge retention35Corrosion resistance8.54.5Ease of sharpeningEasyModerately Hard14C28N vs D2. G10 I was the heat treater, but after HT to only 58-59 hardness the blades went to the surface grinders for finishing and I remember them going into the packing boxes with mirror polished edges.
